Ahem. To all of my Christian friends, readers, listeners, and enemies, who keep telling me about what a good bloke their god, Yahweh, is. I even had one of them, in an email thread, tell me that Yahweh had never committed mass murder. Oh my… Darwin.
Steve Wells has done some math for us.
It’s impossible to say for sure, but plently. How many did God drown in the flood or burn to death in Sodom and Gomorrah? How many first-born Egyptians did he kill? There’s just no way to count them all.
But sometimes the Bible tells us exactly how many were killed by God. Here’s a list of those that I can find. (If you find any that I’ve missed, let me know and I’ll add them to the list.)
So far I come up with a total of 32.9 million (not including, at least in some cases, women and children).
Check out this link for the breakdown.
This is the god you choose to believe in? Out of all of the gods you could believe in, this is the one you’re picking? It is estimated that six million Jews died in the Holocaust but that was in the 20th Century. If you were to believe the OT, Yahweh committed his acts of genocide somewhere around 4000BCE – 400BCE when the population of the planet was far smaller. In fact, in the Great Flood, we’re supposed to believe he killed everyone on the planet except some sailor guy and his wife and kids. That’s genocide on a scale that Saddam Hussein could only DREAM of.
If I absolutely *had* to believe in a god… if my life depended on it… I’d pick Aphrodite, the Greek goddess of love, lust, beauty, and sexuality. Doesn’t that sound like a much better god to worship (if you’re into that kind of thing)?
They’ll get out of that one by blabbering on about how the god of the old testament is different to the god of the new testament. Christians are far to good a wriggling out of stuff to get trapped by that 🙂
Explain again why you take such joy in attacking Christianity?
Oh yeah, because Christians just turn the other cheek.
So why again don’t you go after Islam?
Yeah I thought so…..
Actually usually when you attack Christianity you get a whole lot of foul language hurled back at you along with senseless arguments culminating in ‘yeah well you’re going to burn in hell’.
Why Christianity? Because they are the closest target. I know far more Christians than I do any other variety. You’ll note though that Yahweh is also the god of the Jews and the Muslims, so don’t take it so personally Shane. You all worship the same concept of a genocidal, mass murderer who kills men and women who don’t believe in him and their children are just, I imagine, innocent bystanders.
Miriam, Christians believe (as far as I understand it) that Jesus *IS* God. So it’s impossible to dodge it.
Cam, Christians have a slightly more complicated view on this stuff. When push comes to shove they believe the bits they like out of the old testament, most of the new testament and then sort of decorate it with whatever mumbojumbo their particular denomination likes to add.
It was the council of Nicea who decided in the first place that Jesus is God and not all denominations pay any attention to that.
The real trick is that they have faith. So turning their own religious texts against them won’t shake them up in the slightest.
Dammit I left an a out of Nicaea. There’s got to be something wrong with a word with so many damned vowels!
Do any Christians have a problem with the body count in the Bible? It’s a real question, I’m curious.
I think most of them decide that that bit is just myth used to scare people. Very few Christians outside America take everything in the Bible literally.
You know what, you’re right Cameron, like most holy books, the Bible has a lot of stuff that is morally reprehensible. It also has a lot of stuff that is quite beautiful – OT included, with many depictions of mercy and compassion – so you have to be careful in what you hold onto and what you don’t.
I’m a Christian, because I believe in Jesus of Nazereth being the closest depiction of what God is like – one that resonates with my conscience and reason. But I find that some resonance in many other pieces of literature as well, so I don’t claim the Bible is exclusive there. I treat the Bible much like I do any other piece of work – approach it with an open mind, but realise that its just a book, and dogmatic adherence it is as dangerous as dogmatic adherence to the New York times, or the movie Dumb and Dumber, or whatever.
I know Christians might be an easy target, and sadly many Christians do readily defend some of the passages of the OT, and I would join in you in trying to help them understand why that’s not a healthy way of looking at the world … but I would encourage you to make sure you realise, and acknowledge, that not all Christians believe things you find to be dumb or morally wrong, just as not all Muslims, Buddhists, atheists, et all believe things that are dumb or morally wrong. Every worldview has its broad spectrum of wackos, moderates, thinkers, mystics, etc, etc. Heck – any significantly large group of humans has this, forget about worldviews per se. Give me a large enough group of LA Lakers supporters and you’ll find the same thing!
I always strive to think of how I would, as an intelligent member of a given worldview or group of people, explain certain things, and I would encourage you to do the same thing. Always look for common ground, for in that lies mutual understanding of each other.
I’ll grant that it’s a bit more boring than blasting the extreme viewpoints and stereotypes, and will probably result in less front pages and podcast downloads, so I guess it depends what you’re after! Hehe :-))
All the best mate
Ben
I can tell you how it is justified, god giveth and god taketh away. Also murder as a sin wasn’t established until the new testament with the 10 commandments.
The flooding was Gods equivelant to shaking up an etch-a-sketch.
I actually think the ‘God kills/killed people’ argument against the ‘son of abraham’ religions is a rather dull one and overly simplistic. Arguing against what a person believes in is also futile, akin to blind people arguing about the color of the sky (that old paradox)
Ben – I’m sorry mate, but yes, *all* Christians, by the fact that they accept mythology as fact, I find …well I wont say “dumb”, but “delusional”. And walking around delusional is dangerous. Not only for themselves, but for the human race as a whole. So the point of the current meme isn’t just to beat up on Christians, it’s to point out that believing in Bronze Age mythologies is dangerous and figure out ways to help these people catch up to the 21st century.
Nik – 100 years ago, most people also believed in segregation and that “coloureds” and women couldn’t vote. 100 years before that, most people believed in slavery. Are you saying that arguing against their beliefs would have been ‘futile’? I believe *not* arguing against their beliefs would have been, morally, almost as bad as believing such rubbish.
Oh and btw mate, I’m pretty sure the “Thou Shalt not Committ Murder” commandment came with the rest of the commandments, ie to Moses in the OT in Genesis, the very first book of the Bible.
You are comparing global genocide to shaking an etch-a-sketch? Wow mate, it’s that kind of thinking that needs to be wiped off the face of this planet, once and for all. THAT is why I consider Christians to be dangerous. Oh and congrats on the latest Omnidrive announcement dude, very cool. 🙂
BTW, Will those of you trying to speak for Christianity that are not Christians kindly stop please? We have a hard enough time trying to get our message across without having to deal with the fud you are confusing the discussion with. 🙂
Christianity at its foundation is about salvation, not death, not destruction, not damnation. The fact that Cameron takes great pride in drawing on uneducated exegesis of Biblical theology is “delusional” in its own right. 🙂
Christianity is about choice. Christianity is about a personal relationship. A personal relationship between you and your creator, your God. If you choose not to have this relationship then halleluiah! You have the power to make that choice NO ONE ELSE MAKES IT FOR YOU.
Even as a non-Christian you are aware of personal relationships. These relationships are something to be cherished and kept close to the heart, not something to be attacked and pulled apart by 3rd parties that have no concept at all about the relationship’s basis for existence. Always keep this in the front of your mind when you enter in debates such as this. No wonder you get so many Christians reacting the way they do. Remember this is a question of faith; it is a deeply personal issue you are trying to rip apart.
So stop referring to Christianity as a collective group of idiots. When Miriam makes outlandish statements about the Council of Nicaea, I don’t judge all females from Melbourne to have the same uneducated beliefs as her? 🙂
Christians are not sinless. Therefore there will always be examples that you can draw on that show the ignorance & stupidity of the minority that become utterly misled. The Crusades are an unfortunate example of this.
Christians are no different to every other human on this planet, EXCEPT for the relationship they have with God, Christians have no magical powers, no special privileges, no living by different rules. Christians can make the same mistakes as everyone else.
Christianity is the only religion in the world, where the God of that religion has done everything needed for all people to receive salvation. You just need to have faith and believe. That means there is no religious spot you need to go to every year, no ritual that you need to perform regularly to receive get-into-heaven points, no living multiple lives to reach enlightenment, no special colour of skin you must have, no particular country that you must live in and most importantly no mortal that you have to submit to.
All you need is faith in one God, who sent his son to die as a perfect sacrifice for us, so we can have that personal relationship.
Faith is about choice, your personal choice. Thank God we live in a country where we have that choice.
So bring on the debate by all means, just stop the mindless derogatory accusations. Like Ben said, “’ll grant that it’s a bit more boring than blasting the extreme viewpoints and stereotypes, and will probably result in less front pages and podcast downloads, so I guess it depends what you’re after!â€
…and maybe, just maybe you will get more people chosing to join in on the discussion. 🙂
The debate is what this is all about, buddy. Exactly what were my “mindless derogatory accusations”? That Yahweh is a genocidal mass murderer of innocent children? That’s what it says in *your* bible, sunshine. Oh and let’s add to the list, since you just reminded me, that this Yahweh also supposedly offered up his son to be tortured and murdered when, being omni-powerful, if he wanted to forgive the human race, he could have just done so. Is this another example you are planning on following, Shane-o?
Christians like to justify their religion with nice, fluffy-sounding statements, which leads me to wonder if any of them have actually even *read* their own bible. Their religion is actually full of pretty evil ideas and claims. While some of the stuff in the Bible (love your neighbour) is harmless, the rest of it is pretty damn flat out BAD. If you want to be nice to each other, go right ahead. But, as a species, we need to leave behind our need for believing in supernatural beings and accept a rational approach to understanding the universe.
So my basic premises for this discussion are:
1. Anyone who believes they are having a “personal relationship” with an invisible phantom deity is probably seriously delusional. Unless they can provide evidence otherwise.
2. Anyone who is operating in a seriously delusional state is a danger to themselves and to the people around them.
3. Christians believe the world is going to end in a “judgment day” when all of the non-believers (60% of the world, men, women and children) are going to be delivered a fiery, torturous death. They are actually looking forward to another act of mass genocide by their god. This makes them terrorists, by desire if not by deed.
4. All of this belief in mythical beings and supernatural causes for things interferes with the search for rational answers to the mysteries of the universe. And the longer it takes for us to discover the rational reasons for how the universe works, the greater danger life on this planet is in of being wiped out by disease or natural disaster (not to mention religious terrorism).
Therefore, all religious believers are a threat to life on this planet, either directly or indirectly.
Shane – I’m not sure how exactly my statement about Nicaea was outlandish. One of the primary (and most controversial) purposes of the meeting was to establish whether God was the same flesh as Jesus; Jesus was created by God and therefore inferior; or the compromise view that they were of a similar substance. Now I know that all many Christians know about the council of Nicaea is that stuff that you recite every week in church but there are actually historical records of this.
Also, I was brought up Christian. When I was 12 I was confirmed a Catholic by my own choice. I left the church at 15 still believing in God but convinced that God cares more about my actions and my personal relationship with God than whether I turn up and sing a bunch of hymns every week.
So I’ve spent more of my life Christian than non Christian so I figure I have at least some right to comment.
I don’t believe that there’s anything wrong with Christianity if it makes you guys sleep better at night. I do believe there’s something wrong with the lack of respect for other religions, trying to convert people all the time, and telling people that they’re ‘going to hell’ if they, say, don’t want to join the Christian Union at a university. I know that most Christians aren’t like that, however those are the people who’s discussions you should be worrying about, not ours.
Cameron, old pal, sounds like you get pretty fired up about this stuff eh! You got some pretty fundy views on Christianity – methinks you’ve had too much exposure to the American evangelical, conservative type of Christian. You need to sit down and have a beer with more Catholics, Orthodox and the like – or just in general people who don’t see the world in black and white.
Christianity, at its heart, like most religions, is about the letting go of the ego, finding that we are part of the whole and that the destiny of this world is unity, reconciliation and restoration – and our journey – individual and collective – to that starts now, through social action, environmental action, and so forth. All sorts of Christians add all sorts of things to that core, but that is the core – at least in my opinion 🙂
Anyway, sounds like you’re not interested in the type of discussion I’m interested in on this topic, so I’ll let ya’ be, just though I’d add another Christian perspective to the mix!
Cheers
Ben
Ben, I’m interested in those subjects, but I’m wondering how you came to the conclusion that these subjects are what Christianity is about. I don’t remember reading about environmental action in the OT or the NT. I’m basing my views on what Christianity is about on those books. If you disagree that those books are the basis of the Christian view of the world, then please let me know where I’m going wrong.
Hey Cameron
I guess what I’m saying is Christianity is not about a book, but about a way of life and hope for the future – the path to enlightenment if you like. Although I do believe Jesus is the son of God and provided us the greatest example and guideline in this respect (and hence why I call myself a Christian) I do also believe that many other great teachers have taught about this journey as well – the Dalai Lama, Buddha, et al. People who have transcended above the ego, and all this “my belonging system is better than your belonging system” bull***.
I don’t environmental action in clear wording in the Bible – social action more so in the teachings of Jesus – but I don’t need to. All I need to be convinced of is that we have a duty to care for this world, and care for our fellow human beings – that is innate to me (and innate to all of us I believe) and I don’t need any book to tell me that. Just as you didn’t need any book to tell you to not cheat, steal or not give other people a fair go – you just “know” it. We may disagree on the genesis of this “knowing”, but we would probably both still agree its there.
In regards to Christianity being founded on the Bible, well certainly understand you thinking that, and many Christians do believe that. I think its unfortunate, because the Bible is just a book, and is to be approached in the same way you would approach any other book – open minded but critically. I think Christianity is founded instead on Christ Himself, His teachings and what his life says about the fate of this world – Christians are those who believe in Christ as the “great master”. His birth = the birth of the world; his life and death = the pain and suffering of this world; his resurrection = the pending restoration of this world.
That’s just my opinion, and don’t worry it makes me a heretic in many Christian circles! But hey – everyone is someone else’s heretic, right? :-))
Cheers
Ben
Well Ben, I think we’re both almost on the same team then. I’ve said here many times that I have no problem at all with people reading the Bible along with any other great work of literature and taking lessons from it about how to live happier, more fulfilling lives or how to get along better together (for the record, I don’t think the Bible has much to contribute on such subjects). What bothers me are the people who, in the 21st century, still cling to believing in ancient mythologies as if they are truth. That’s what I firmly believe we have to dismantle. We need the 21st century to be an era of reason, not delusion and prejudice.
Cam the vast majority of Christians (outside America at least) take the old testament as myth intended to guide behaviour.
There are people who literally believe all that stuff in revelations as well but others believe that it’s not intended as a literal timeline. The fundamentalist Americans are the ones who cause trouble with evolution, the age of the earth and suchlike but your average garden variety Baptist, Catholic, Anglican etc Christians as a general rule (keeping in mind there are nutters in every group) are far more sensible about the whole thing.
Miriam, if someone doesn’t believe in the OT then I don’t think they can really call themselves Christians. As far as I understand it, JC bought the OT lock, stock and barrel. The justification for him being the Messiah by the people in the NT is predicated on the prophecies of the OT. So if someone likes to take bits and pieces of wisdom from the NT and leave the rest, I would suggest they aren’t really a Christian at all. I don’t know what they are though.
The “garden variety” may be slightly more sensible but if they believe in a deity or that some bloke was “divine” and rose from the dead, that they have a ‘personal relationship’ with him, that he speaks to them, interferes in the affairs of humankind, answers prayers, etc…. then they also belong to the dangerous “nutters” category in my opinion.
QUOTE: “Miriam, if someone doesn’t believe in the OT then I don’t think they can really call themselves Christians. As far as I understand it, JC bought the OT lock, stock and barrel. The justification for him being the Messiah by the people in the NT is predicated on the prophecies of the OT. So if someone likes to take bits and pieces of wisdom from the NT and leave the rest, I would suggest they aren’t really a Christian at all. I don’t know what they are though. ”
Wow! Cam has learnt a lot! 🙂 He’s quite right, Christians shouldn’t see the OT as mythology, it’s not.
So Shane you’re saying that we should take Eve being made out of Adams rib; every human on earth being horribly inbred because first we all came from Adam and Eve and then God thought ‘everything is becoming far too diverse lets drown everyone bar two and start again’; children surviving being put in a furnace; God dropping a bunch of frogs on Egypt; God creating the earth in precisely 6 days and then taking a nap etc literally??
Do you take every law in Deuteronomy as the word of God may which still holds true or do you perhaps consider that they made sense at the time but should be updated a little for a modern audience?
So I have a question for you: which denomination are you? I only ask because different denominations of Christianity have very different views on the whole thing.
Cam – I don’t know any Christians who literally believe that God talks to them. They believe that he guides their decisions but if they honestly hear something along the lines of *insert big booming voice* “Cameron, if you take a left here you can skip the traffic down Chapel st” then they need their head checked. As far as answering prayers I believe the official word is God helps he who helps himself.
Shane – of course it actually *is* mythology, as is the NT. Mythology is a body or collection of myths belonging to a people and addressing their origin, history, deities, ancestors, and heroes. A myth is a traditional, typically ancient story dealing with supernatural beings, ancestors, or heroes that serves as a fundamental type in the worldview of a people, as by explaining aspects of the natural world or delineating the psychology, customs, or ideals of society. So there is absolutely no denying that the OT and NT are “myths” in the literal sense of the word.
Miriam – I think everyone who believes something with absolutely no evidence to support it needs their head checked. It is irrational to believe something without having a reason to believe it.
Just because something is irrational it doesn’t make it madness. I was happy being a Catholic when I was one. I enjoyed mass and prayer and everything that went with it. I don’t really believe in God anymore but I don’t believe I was a crazy person for believing in God before.
It is in our nature to search for ‘something’ else, Cam, whether it be a religion such as Christianity or more of a philosophy like Dzogchen.
Your views on Christianity are clearly strongly effected by your experience with evangelical types and yes, I think many of those need their heads checked, but most Christians are perfectly sensible, intellegent people.
Arghhh! I can’t keep up with this thread anymore. Thanks Cam, we have been working hard, keep it up with TPN 🙂
Mim – plenty of delusional people are happy in their deluded state. I understand that. That’s often why they allow themselves to fall into the state in the first place. It’s an escape from the harsh reality. You often hear of people becoming christians when they go through a tough personal tragedy, losing a loved one, etc. Believing in an imaginary happy place that person has gone to and you will one day join them there is nicer than accepting the reality that you are never going to see them again. I heard an interesting podcast today where a philosopher was saying he doesn’t really believe many people are religious purely due to ‘faith’. They normally have reasons – just not reasons that they would willingly admit to anyone else because they know how ridiculous they sound. One of those might be “because it makes me happier than accepting the alternative”.
Nik, if I’d known you were that easy to leave behind, I would have started this discussion on the second round of shots at the TechCrunch Ranch. 🙂
I guess I’m probably not the best champion for the sanity of (ex) Christians am I. I think its fairly obvious that I have more than a few screws loose 🙂
“Just because something is irrational it doesn’t make it madness.”
And yet, if I were to claim that I was the second coming (and assuming that I really believed that and it made me happy to do so) would that not make me insane?
wow a lot of good points made.far more on the side of not believing in a god of pure nonsense a god that loves to kill a and burn 90% of the worlds people with an everlasting fire wow what a hard sell lets believe in a god that in a sane persons view would have to say man what the hell did you do to piss him off that much lol.but the real and most important thing to tell people is that if you don’t believe in jesus christ as your personal savoir guess what you are not going to burn for all eternity in an anguishing fire.why you might ask because hell is the most evil lie ever told to humans by a bunch of people who were losing followers so they had to make up something for people to fear god so much that they would worship him out fear.Even hitler with all the evil things he did in his life is not burning in a hell in everlasting pain and torment crying out for some water.what has lead man to think this way what the hell is the point of living if your going to burn for all eternity while 10% live in a paradise.think about it 90% of people wouldn’t at least 10% of them who were going to that hell wake up every night in absolute horror knowing were there going its just a stupid man made evil lie.
Cain murdered Abel yet God did not kill him. Those souls that die will go to God until the resurection and then be taught the laws of Yahweh. If they do not obey then they will receive eternal death.
Father Donn, thanks for visiting. I’m not sure I understand your Cain reference. Are you suggesting somehow that this makes your Yahweh a good role model?
Yahshua, (Jesus), is the role model. His example of life should be followed by all now or in the resurection.
Can you really ignore the possibility of a Supreme Being that created us all? Where is there an instance of life beginning where no life exsisted before? And if there is a Supreme Creator, is it not reasonable for Him to expect us to follow a code of conduct?
Yahweh has granted us free will so that we can learn and fail to our own human nature. We all will die and eventually be resurected to learn how we need to live to be granted eternal life.
In His great battle with Satan, God had to command people to die in order for His plan of salvation to succeed. All those who have died will be resurected and given the opportunity to live by Yahweh’s laws.
Father Donn, don’t christians believe that Yahshua *is* Yahweh? How can a being who is omnipotent need to battle with any other being? Your mythology isn’t consistent. He is either omnipotent… or he’s just another jealous and angry god.
Let me ask you – why do you believe in this particular god? Why not Zeus or Poseidon or Aphrodite?
I do ignore the possibility of a Supreme Being that created us all. There is no justification and no evidence to support that theory at all. No Christian or religious group have provided any evidence that any God ever existed, or currently exists.
When the world comes to the realisation of that the world will be a lot happier place and a lot safer place to be. As long as religion is around fuelling the flames their will continue to be the plagues on humanity that currently exist.
Saying the those who were willing to die would be resurrected and live by his laws is ridiculous. If God/Yahweh or whatever he calls himself is so all powerful why couldn’t he defeat Satan by himself without the aid of mere mortals. Without God there is no Satan so in theory God created Satan and therefore he asked people to commit suicide which if I am incorrect is some kind of sin.
The whole Christian belief system is a long list of contradictions and none of them make any sense.
Yeah I’m pretty much with Tony. I can’t completely, 100% assert that there is zero chance of some sort of puppetmaster with his magic fingers on the strings of the universe, but I’ve never seen a single shred of evidence to suggest there is and so I feel safe completely ignoring the possibility. If there was such a creator, and if it really wanted to us to know it existed, it would make it’s existence obvious, it wouldn’t play hide-and-go-seek games and expect us to make it up as we go along.
If there is a God, the free will aspect is mean. Why give people free will and then demand they follow a code or burn in hell?
What purpose does that actually serve?
You misunderstand! Satan and his demons can do no harm unless Yahweh allows it. Yahweh created the angels and one third of them rebelled against Yahweh with Satan.
God made Adam and Eve who followed the serpent’s,Satan, lead and sinned. Humans were then destined to die until Yashua was made human without sin to pay for our sins.
For those of you who think you know it all, how did life on Earth begin? Was the same soup that supposedly made all living creatures also responsible for plant life?
How is it you can have so much faith in Yahweh’s non-exsistence and so much faith that we are here without a creator?
Your rebelious eyes have closed your mind!
Father Donn, not believing in Yahweh doesn’t require “faith”. There is no evidence to suggest the existence of a Yahweh. You might as well ask why someone doesn’t believe in the existence of Ra, Ganesha or Hercules. Tell me – do you believe in their existence as well?
Rational thinkers claim to “know it all”. We claim to search for the truth. Before any theory of the nature of things can have any credibility, it must be supported by evidence.
You’re version of the Yahweh myth are interesting.
“Humans were destined to die”… they don’t die now?
“Yashua was made human”… I thought he was really Yahweh in human disguise? If he was human, he would have died, REALLY DIED, on the cross. Yet X’s believe he didn’t die – therefore he wasn’t human. Therefore… what was the point again?
First off, for general information, the existence of a man called Jesus has been proven by written scripts. Secondly, is there any evidence supporting the theory of gravity, the quantium law of physics, or that the center of the Earth is a molten ball of lava? You don’t know it is true until you experience it, however, how can one experience what is beyond understanding? And lastly, Christians believe that Christ did die-blood and water poured from His side- but that He rose from the dead. I know, I know, rising from the dead…sounds like a fairy tale! But people have been risen from the dead, even in this day and age. One thing I find interesting is how Christs life fufilled over a hundred prophesies of the Old Testament…but anyway, I think it is easier to believe in nothing than it is to believe that Someone could love another so much as to sacrifice His life for us-’cause phhssshhh, we sure as heck wouldn’t do it for someone else!-and that He came back to life…it defeats all we know of the cycle of life…you’re dead, you’re dead, and no questions asked. Yet I, even in my non-brilliance, find that believing a fairy tale is more comforting than going by the evidence of what I see around me, ’cause life is so depressing, what with people killing each other for the heck of it, betrayal, lies, abuse, rape, and other acts of such cruelty it boggles my mind…and it makes me wonder, is there a point to it all?! But then I remember, without my “fairytale” of better things, I couldn’t go on. Christianity is not about whether a person goes to heaven or hell, but rather it is a message of choice, of deciding to believe in what you don’t understand, of having hope in life, of redemption.
Hey Cameron,
I saw this and thought, I must join in, even only for if a little while.
I understand what you are saying Cameron, I really do.
But let me first say this. I am a Christian, and I am fundamentalist. Which apparently in english terms means that I believe the OT and NT word for word.
Well they are either true or not right. At least this is agreeable considering if some of it wasn’t true the whole thing might as well be a fake right. I mean if God is all powerfull well then I would expect a book inspired by Him to last the test of time and consistency and accuracy from the begining to the end, considering historical and archieological accuracy also.
Therefore I have also studied thorougly history, and science and found the bible to be true.
There is a verse in the Bible after all that says.. Test All things and hold onto those which are True.
The shirt you are wearing is either blue or red it cant be both right. Only one is truth right ?
I know it sounds like religious fundamentalism etc, but what you need to consider when entering into a debate such as this is that you are hurting alot of people.
It might sound interesting and appealing, however if you claim to want to understand the reason why we believe the things we do, you need to not only look at the evidence from the limited knowledge that you have but from all angles.
Do the study yourself. Find out objectively and subjectively, as that Is what Ive always tried to do.
Put yourself in this position Cam. Say you are a judge ok.
If you were in a court of law and were the judge, there was Jesus on the left and Satan on the right and you yourself had to judge the substance of the truth and evidence provided to you, as to who existed and if they did exist who was the one that was right or true.
Now with the claim you started with at the top of your blog, Satan and God=Jesus (Father+Son+Holy Spirit) are real in a sense or for the sake of this argument and Satan is the good humanitarian.
The one who rebelled against God right, hey maybe he was right. After all I mean he did help us to see right from wrong right.
So theoretically saying Satan might be the good guy, and this book was created to stop you from learning the truth.
or maybe not.
How do you know.
I mean how do you not know also Cam.
But do you want to take the chance.
You know the GREAT thing about you is that you are asking questions which is soo much more than most other people, even if they might be negative to so many people mate you still ask the purtanent questions.
If there is anything that I can impart on you from a thoroughly Christian perspective here is
Do the proper research and hold on to that which is truth. Dont let anyone tell you it is the truth unless you find out yourself.
Religion is NOT christianity mate. Being a Christian is to be like Christ, and not like man, and Christ was not religious.
throughwhiteknuckledfingers – there is no proof that I am aware of that Jesus ever existed. What is the proof that you claim to have?
The evidence supporting the theory of gravity is apparent when you jump up in the air…. and then fall back down. The evidence supporting the laws of quantum mechanics are manifold. Read a book about it for more detail.
People have been risen from the dead? Please tell me more.
Dan – thanks for the comment. You say you have studied science and found the bible to be true. Are you saying that you have found science to be compatible with the bible? Or that science is just plain wrong?
Cam,
yeah science is totally compatible.
Okay Dan, you care to explain that? Because from where I and most rational thinkers sit, the bible is about as UNscientific as you can get. A Superman comic is more scientific than the bible.
Lol,
I love superman. In a totally manly way that is. I mean I pretty much draw comics for a living. Imagination is very important to me.
Well cameron where do you want me to start.. I mean that is purely coming from my studies and experience.
I was a very very keen student of biology and evolution. But I was also a christian and this kinda conflicted with me due to the fact that the bible is so different to the account it stated and evolution states.
Start by having a look here..
http://www.answersingenesis.org/
Maybe it might shed some light on some questions you have and that I believe in.. Science that correlates with the Bible.
Howevevr you might at this time say.. Hey DAN thats new stuff, made after Darwins theory. But if you read Darwins biography like I have you will see the problems with his theory.
Have a deeper look if you are really interested mate 🙂
Dan, I’ve read through that site before and, as far as I can see, it doesn’t help your argument at all. Every article I’ve read on the site seems to repeat the same mantra: “What scientists believe is wrong unless it fits with a literal interpretation of the old testament.”
Take this one simple quote from it:
“The only way to assert that evolution and ‘religion’ are compatible is to regard ‘religion’ as having nothing to do with the real world, and being just subjective. A God who ‘created’ by evolution is, for all practical purposes, indistinguishable from no God at all.”
(http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/re1/chapter1.asp)
Okay, so they obviously don’t think evolution is a fact. Do you?
More from the same page:
“An orderly universe makes perfect sense only if it were made by an orderly Creator. But if there is no creator, or if Zeus and his gang were in charge, why should there be any order at all?”
This is the anthropomorphic principle argument. In other words, if our universe didn’t have the laws of physics (“order”) that it does, then we wouldn’t be around to ask the question. Quite simple.
So come on Dan, start talking for yourself. Give me YOUR reasons for believing that science and the bible are compatible.
Do you really believe a man can fly? 🙂
What comics do you draw?
Hi cam,
Yeah, Im sorry I do agree with you in regards to the way that the site is constructed, and sorry for pawning you off like that, i had a very limited time to answer, was still working.
Well to answer your question would take me a while since my journey to this place has taken me a while.
Im not sure what I can tell you without writting an essay about it, but ill let you know some things I think are pretty important.
This is from my perspective (considering God exists)
1) If God is all powerfull, why not 6 days ?
2) Everything in the universe is put together for a reason, hence all the laws of science as we know should be totally compatible with Gods word.
To name some, Theory of Relativity and Laws of Thermodynamics (which are not compatible with the theory of Evolution ie. Everything goes from a higher state of being to a lower state of being for example – ie Death and Decay.)
3) Reading Darwins biography and seeing the incompatibilities it has with science today.
I especially like his statements which say.. “If this theory is not correct Im afraid the whole theory would fall apart.. ”
Ah, yeah star wars mainly. However at the moment were working on the animated series.
Dan,
I have some major concerns about your answers above.
1. The problem here is that there is no evidence to support the God hypothesis. So we cannot even assume he exists, let alone is “all powerful”. Unless you have some evidence to the contrary.
2. I don’t accept your statement that everything in the universe is put together “for a reason”. That seems to me to be a huge statement. Where is your evidence for that statement? Secondly, the theories of relativity and thermodynamics do not contradict evolution as far as I’m aware. The second law of thermodynamics is usually stated as “The entropy of an isolated system not in equilibrium will tend to increase over time, approaching a maximum value at equilibrium.” But life on this planet is not “an isolated system” by any means. We get energy inputs constantly from the sun and all life on the planet interacts with other forms of life. Then there is radiation, temperature changes, etc. I’ve heard this argument from Christians before and it isn’t very well thought through.
3. Darwin’s biography? What about reading “The Origin Of Species”? I’m interested to know where you think his theory of evolution is incompatible. You can’t just make statements like that without providing details and expect me to take you seriously.
As for Star Wars, however, that is very cool. I love the animated series. If you HAVE to believe in a mythology, I’d pick Star Wars over Christianity any day. 🙂
cam,
sorry mate, I dont have much time to answer but as soon as I do I will try.
You sound like you’ve already done your research. Im therefore very suprised that you have come to the conclusion that everything is a mere coincidence or chance.
However you might not be saying that and you might actually have a belief as to why everything in the world works together so well.
I know im being general, but I will answer more thoroughly when I get a moment.
However yes also the Origin of Species is another book which is imho incompatible with todays theory of evolution.
Talk soon/
Creation is the evidence of a higher power. If you cannot accept that Yahshua, Jesus, was real, then how can you believe Abe Lincoln or George Washington actually exsisted?
My faith is that Yahweh & Yahshua created man in their image, two ears, two eyes, two arms & legs but one mouth and one mind.
Lack of faith in a Creator forces one to believe in evolution or the fact that nothing created a pea soup that eventually Earth full of living things.
Don, there is plenty of evidence to support the theories that Lincoln and Washington existed. On the contrary, there is zero evidence to support either the Yahweh or Yashua theories.
You didn’t answer my question from before:
You said “Yashua was made humanâ€â€¦ I thought he was really Yahweh in human disguise? If he was human, he would have died, REALLY DIED, on the cross. Yet X’s believe he didn’t die – therefore he wasn’t human. Therefore… what was the point again?
Don,
This is where christians let themselves down – it’s all in the details. If we are created in Yahweh’s image, then why does she (the creater of all) have a defunct appendix? Has she had it surgically removed? I can just see St Peter donning the surgical gloves M.A.S.H. style, doind a quick slice and dice and then sitting back with some post-op moonshine.
I thought modern interpretation of the “in his image” line was that we are created in the image of his soul – i.e. having the ability to love, care, etc.
Your ridicule of the “pea soup” highlights christian’s arrogance of the importance of humans. Their focus is always on a human-centric world. First Earth was the centre of the universe, then the world was only 6,000 years old, now you have a problem with us evolving from soup (not to mention from apes). Why limit your focus? There is a logical progression of matter and life right back to before the Earth was even formed. Forget the Earth in this whole discussion even. Why not get over the nuts and bolts of how humans got here and start looking at how anything got here? Dismaiss the assumption that because we think about how we got here that we were being thought of when the whole party got started.
It is a demonstrable form of self delusion and arrogance that christians place human (and hence their own) importance above that of plants, animals, insects, planets and galaxies.
There is no evidence of evolution, only theories. It is the arrogance and rebelious nature of humans that refuse to believe that a higher power is the Creator.
Yahshua and Yahweh are two distinct members of the God family. When man sinned and was sentenced to death, Yahshua volunteered to pay for all sins by being born as a human, living a sinless life and paying the price for all human’s sins.
Where did the “logical progression of matter” come from?
If we can rely on the written word to prove the exsistance of Lincoln and Washington, Why can’t we believe the written word to prove the exsistance of a Saviour?
By the way Hugo, I believe you are more important than the weeds that are growing in my yard. Don’ you agree?
I’m sorry, Donn, but this is where Christians such as yourself lose complete credibility with people like me.
You say “There is no evidence of evolution”. This is so far from the truth, that I have to conclude that you are either naively ignorant of the facts or in denial of them.
And there is no excuse for any intelligent person to make such a fallacious statement in the 21st century.
Please review the following and then we can talk:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence_of_evolution
Donn, do I need to point out the arrogance of you statement about the weeds. I don’t agree. From what perspective am i more important than weeds? Only from a human one. Although i am quite partial to life and from a selfish standpoint would like to live a long life and make a positive difference to the world, at this point in time, me dying would probably be the best thing for the world. And when i say world, i mean the earth as a whole, where humans are just one part of it. All i do is consume resources and degrade the rest and i would consider myself to be moderately environmental.
It is also extrememly arrogant to say that some being akin to a hmuan than any other creature (known or not known in this universe) created all matter.
And how can you say there is no such thing as evolution? Do you have a pet dog? If species were incapable of altering from one generation to the next, then you would have been mauled visciously by your pet wolf a long time ago. There weren’t many types of “dog” a few thousand years ago but they have been bred into existance.
Cameron, your faith in the theory of evolution is astounding. You can believe in the theory but no human has ever created life where none exsisted before.
Donn, I don’t have “faith” in the theory of evolution. The theory of evolution has enough scientific evidence supporting it that only someone who is determined to avoid reality can deny that it is rooted in fact. Humans are not yet smart enough to create life from scratch but it’s only a matter of time before we do.
Now, on the other hand, while evolution has overwhelming scientific evidence, the God theory has zero.
So, i put it to you – which is more astounding? Accepting a theory which has overwhelming evidence, or accepting a theory which has zero?
think of it as why do we want children when we marry.. to share our life with to love and care for something we create and that will love us in return to watch a life grow into manhood or womanhood.. to leave our assets too. Christ has given us an inheritance of salvation.
Janna, we want to have kids because we are genetically programmed to spread our genome. We are gene machines. Humans, like all life on this planet, lives to serve one purpose and one purpose only – the perpetuation of their dna. As Richard Dawkins articulated so beautifully 35 years ago in his book “The Selfish Gene”.
Why did God kill people?
Because He wanted too! Too obvious
Not really, for God’s people He promises things. He provides ways and means for His people to survive conquer and prosper. Part of these promises God makes with His people include the loss of life for other people in this world who choose not to be a part of God’s people.
God is LOVE. The Old Testament declares it through the words of Moses, David, Solomon, and God Himself. He chose those people the Israelites only because He made a promise to Abraham. Before Abraham He chose people because they remembered Him. God is the God of all creation people forget to teach that to their children. It is not Gods fault, He has none. Mankind is selfish and undeserving of Gods love and Grace. We have stuffed the planet and the lives of each other not to mention every other species living on this planet that God has created and what do we show from it all? The ignorance to turn around 14 generations later and say; “screw God worship Aphroditeâ€
To bad for the fool who can not look up and remember that God created all this!
Oh and by the way all the times of the old testament when God killed people or had the Israelites kill people it was because He made a promise to do so.
The promises were all because of reasons to deliver the people who remembered Him.
eg; The Egyptians worshiped Isis and “sun gods” and held the only people who would honor the true GOD captive and murder and punish them. God delivered his people.
The same is true for the rest of the Old Testament, foolish people who paid no respect to our creator got in the way of God’s people and He destroyed them
Andrew, how sad it is to hear such racist and divisive words coming from a fellow Australian. Anyone who believes in a all-powerful being who willfully and wontonly murders millions of people is a sad, sick person and I feel deeply sorry for you.
Thank you for bringing the truth forward, may this hopefully open the eyes of narrow minded, brain washed christians all over.
Yea, though I walk through the valley of the theory of evolution, I will fear no evil.
I am not brain washed. I have been enlightened!
BTW, God’s name is Yahweh. His Son is not named Jesus but Yahshua in Hebrew.
Do you really have that shitty of a life, that you have to go online and Talk shit about other people religions?? What is wrong with you? You need a therapist. Seriously.
And you definatly need God in your life…
Like fer sure.
Yea, I am a christian. And yea, I cussed. Woop-d-doo. No is perfect. So bite me.
In the bible, God pretty much said do what he says and you shall live a great life.
So if those retards back then didnt listen. When they had prophets plain as day telling them what God is telling them to do. And from what your saying. “God Murdered Them.”
well, hello. If he brought you into this world, he sure as hell can take you out.
All they had to do was listen. i mean come on.
And no, im not saying “your going to hell cause you people are dumbasses”
Im saying you guys are dumbasses because you for one critisis others religions, for two talking shit about God, and three, not believing in the one who created you.
I would name some scriptures or “passages” you should read to help you, but damn. Read the whole fricken bible.
My email is fallen_angel6.6.6@hotmail.com (funny huh) email me, i dont care.
I am just a teenager, as im sure you can tell.
If you actually feel you do need help, email me….lol
Cause if your too cheap to get a counciler, i am willing to help.
Apparently you have internet, so go to bible.com and read!
mmk.
peace out.
-Heather
P.S
Cameron you seem like a funny sad, sick, slightly mental little person.
and…
i didnt read all of the reply thingys…
who said they believed in evolution????
OMG! Are you serious?
mmk, so you think you came from a fucking monkey?
so someone in your family tree screwed an ape? honestly.
and you said our religion is dumb.
So if its all evolution. what created the VERY!!!!!!! first thing?
did it just happen?
like..
BOOM!
dinosaurs… rawrr!
I WANT TO SAY THAT “WE” (CHRISTIANS) DID NOT “CHOOSE” GOD, HE CHOSE US, EVEN BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD; HE KNEW US – HE SHAPED AND FORMED OUR MOTHER’S WOMB
Odessa, you choose to believe in imaginary invisible telepathic sky people. It strikes me as absurd that intelligent, well-educated people in the 21st century still allow themselves to believe in such things, especially when there is zero evidence and even evidence to the contrary.
Odessa it must be a nice feeling that you were chosen to be one a select group by the creator of the universe. You were hand picked to live forever in ultimate bliss at the side of the all mighty. How good that must feel. How well you must sleep at night.
And the pity you must feel for the unchosen sinners. A few points though which strike me as contradictory.
1. Everyone is born a sinner (except Jesus who therefore was never a man of this world by definition).
2. God loves everyone and wants us all to know him.
3. We do not choose god, he chooses us.
4. God is a fair and just god.
These cannot all be true and yet they are the foundations of modern Christianity.
I am a ‘Christian’ and i want to try and answer your question directly.
Firstly let me say that i think it is great that you are asking these sorts of questions. I mean in the bible God tells us to weigh things up, don’t just believe anything. I think it is very healthy to ask questions, especially when they are the ‘big’ ones which are usually brought up, if someone knows you are a ‘Christian’ lol.
Well the bible says that God is a lot of things a God of Love for example, but then i know that is i leave it there you will say but wait how can he love if hes killing people. i understand our stance.
The bible also says God is Holy,sovereign, all-knowing, all-powerful,ever-present and never changes.
I believe that we are all created by God, everyone, ‘good’ and ‘bad’ all races all ethnic groups, now let me ask you something. If you made something like a clay pot what would you do if the pot you made turned around to you and complained about the way it was made, you would be like, excuse i made you i am the creator you are the created. it is the same with God the created is not greater than the creator? (what do you think?)
You also have to realize that we are thinking in 21st century terms, we have our mind and ideals ingrained in us of what we feel is right and wrong, through family, life and school etc..
Where did those influences get these ideas, from the big bang, i mean if not from a creator who gave us them on our harts and then in basically the 10 commandments, then from were.
How do you now it is not evolutionary better to kill/rape and get away with it, according to Darwin it is survival of the fittest so surely those who murder are better survivors??? but we don’t agree with that or do you?
So if we have right and wrong in our hearts, that must be a good thing.
People living in the time when God was commanding these killings would have felt the same i bet.
So why did God do it?
The people that were to be killed were not innocent do gooders or mother Theresa they worshiped idols, committed child sacrifice led perverse lives. They were rotten through and through. I say this and you will say ok, but what about the women and children. right?
Well God is a god of love and there is always Grace before Judgment, God gave them time to change but they didn’t so you could almost say it was there own prideness in not wanting to change that caused this!
As for the women and children, i am a girl and if i new or saw an army coming to attack me i would run, then men are the warriors so i actually wonder how many women would have died or children .
The bible also talks a bout heaven and that, if a person never hears about God, God wont judge them as that would be unfair and God is fair. It also talks about before a child know right from wrong, if they die before that age they go to heaven (although not all Christians believe tis doctrine) so even if children were killed most would have gone to heaven, so if the young would a have gone to heaven and those who never knew about the real amazing god would have gone to heaven then surly that shows God mercy, as they would have been saved from a life of who knows what? what do you think? God is so great, it says in the bible that god doesn’t want to lose anyone but wishes all would turn to him.
The God i believe in is so great that he sent his son to die for me and you inspite of us not being perfect. He wanted a relationship with us so much that he came to earth,was tortured, crucified and then died so that you and i could have a chance to have a relationship with God. I still have a lot of questions but i have to remember that God is sovereign and i have a human mind and i will probably never full understand everything, Jesus said come follow me not come understand me, that happens as we ask questions and search for the answers together.
I hope this helps please ask an further questions, i pray God blesses you and show you some answers, but do so with an open mind, so that you will the answers he will give you.
Let me start by saying that I’m not a Christian, though I am open minded. Cameron, have you ever researched any of this with an open mind. It’s obvious you have researched but with pre-concieved ideas that you then find information and evidence to verify that belief.
You wanted proof that Jesus existed. What about the writings of Roman historians Flavius Josephus or Tacitus, or are these documents falsified also?
What about Biblical prophecies? Over 380 of around 600 have come to pass, do you know the statistical probability of this? The probability of just 8 prophecies in relation to Jesus is 1 in 100,000,000,000,000,000, so it can’t be mere chance that they were fulfilled.
As for Evolution, it is being discredited by the day. From the time lines of the earth being millions of years old to creatures evolving into something else, SCIENCE is discrediting these theories.
I’ll agree that both Evolution and Creaton are both theories with neither provable, but more and more evidence is being brought to bear that there is indeed an Intelligent Designer.
Tom, I do consider myself to be open minded. Any sensible person is open minded when it comes to trying to understand the truth about who we are and where we came from.
So let me address your points.
1. Neither Josephus nor Tacitus were contemporaries of Jesus (they wrote their books 50 years after Jesus is supposed to have died). Their respective mentions of Christianity in their histories reflect that there was a cult existing during the first century AD, and no-one doubts there was such a cult. There were lots of cults in those days, many of which had a messianic figure to worship. The existence of a cult doesn’t provide evidence that the god figure the cult worships is real.
2. Biblical prophesies? Well let’s start by saying that if you are suggesting prophesies regarding Jesus came true, I will ask you to prove Jesus even existed at all. Then we can talk about proof about what he did. How many contemporary sources do you have who saw what he did or said? Made up stories about people do not count for a prophecy “coming to pass”.
3. Please provide evidence for your statement that evolution is being discredited by science. That sounds like a ludicrous statement. Evolution is a scientific theory with enormous evidence to support it and we get additional evidence every day.
4. Please also provide evidence to support your theory of the “Intelligent Designer”.
You have asked me to have an open mind and I am giving you the opportunity to provide evidence for the things you are suggesting.
Hi Cameron, good points well made so let me address them.
1. Luke WAS a contemporary of Jesus, who did live in his time time and who he knew well. Luke is regarded as one of the great historians and a man given to accurate detail. Unless this is also made up or Luke was deceived then I don’t think we can just dismiss his account of these times.
2. Prophecies
Book of Ezekiel prophesied in 586 BC :the fall of mainland Tyre to the armies of Nebuchadnezzar ,Alexander the Great’s siege against the island fortress of Tyre 253 years later.
Book of Daniel: Written 500 years before the birth of Jesus Christ foretells the very day Christ would enter Jerusalem. Also prophecied in the Book of Zachariah. Even the form of Jesus execution and last words were foretold in Psalm 22.
Book of Leviticus: Israel would become a wasteland and that it would be inhabited by enemies of the people of Israel. This prophecy has been clearly documented throughout history.
Moses prophecied the arrival of Jesus.
There are loads of prophecies throughout the bible, not just those pertaining to Jesus.
Archaelogical evidence is also abundant.The Bible tells us about Nebuchadnezzar and the Babylonian Empire, which destroyed Jerusalem in 586 BC and exiled the Jews to Babylon for 70 years. Babylon has been uncovered, comprising nearly 3,000 acres about 55 miles south of current-day Baghdad.
Unless you are going to dismiss the whole of the Bible as fiction, even though there are roughly 24,000 manuscripts of the bible, copies and fragments of documents relating back to before Jesus time, then you have to look at the evidence and weigh it on its own merits, not just dismiss it out of hand, bearing in mind that it is evidence to support a theory, not proof.
3. Evolution. On the queston of how old the earth is, we have used carbon dating,(only good for about 30-50,000 years), Radioisotope dating which assumes 3 things
1.The initial conditions of the rock sample are accurately known.
2.The amount of parent or daughter elements in a sample has not been altered by processes other than radioactive decay.
3.The decay rate (or half-life) of the parent isotope has remained constant since the rock was formed.
In one test case eleven samples were taken from Mount Ngauruhoe in New Zealand which is one of the country’s most active volcanoes. These rocks are known to have formed from eruptions in 1949, 1954, and 1975. The rock samples were sent to a respected commercial laboratory (Geochron Laboratories in Cambridge, Massachusetts). The ages of the rocks ranged from 0.27 to 3.5 million years old. These rocks are known to be less than 70 years old.
Mount Helen erupted in 1980 and laid down hundreds of feet of stratified rock in a matter of days, previously thought to take thousands of years.
On July 15, 1942 a squadron of planes had to make an emergency landing on a Greenland ice sheet. The planes were abandoned. Later in 1988 the planes were found buried under 250 feet of ice.
As for evolution of man, there is no proof that man evolved from water to land, from ape to homo sapien. Granted there is lots of variation within a species hence different members within the dog family, cat family etc but as far as I’m aware there is no record of one animal evolving into a completely different animal.
You say you want proof that Jesus existed, can you provide proof that man evolved from an entirely different creature?
4.Intelligent Design. I agree that this is a contentious subject that is not accepted by many scientists, and is certainly more vague than the Creationist arguement. I must admit I have not read much about irreducibly complex systems, although at the moment this knowledge of these things could just be beyond our comprehension. Two hundred years ago scientists believed that life could spring from dead materials. This is now known to be absolutely false. Since the discovery of DNA it would seem that living systems and could NOT arise by chance. This would lead me to believe that there is a creator.
Is it possible that everything has been communicated in a similar matter to what we have today? Do you spell check everything you write on-line? Do you have verified sources for everything you report and believe? What level of respect do you expect for every e-mail, letter, and note you write? There is always the possibility that written documents contain opinion. If that wasn’t true, we couldn’t have this discussion.
By the way, I’m gay, and have the translations in Hebrew and Greek that suggest that everyone’s concerns about homosexuality are misguided, and that several “heroes” partook. The Hebrews didn’t apparently think women could be getting it on…so how much divine information could the people of the time really have???
Ok, well god is good and you gyes are being weirdo’s and if you are Jewish don’t say anything cause you obviously don’t know what you are talking about cause if god wasn’t here you would’t be here. So HA! Remember what i say for the rest of your life it will come in Handy.
Ithink most of your comments are stupid along with most of you the bible is not just a book its the holy word of God and this country was founded on God’s word. and not what some dummy thinks it is.
Actually secretagent, assuming “this country” you are referring to is the United States, the “founding fathers” went out of their way to make sure everyone knew it WASN’T founded on any religion, ESPECIALLY Christianity.
From http://www.nobeliefs.com/Tripoli.htm
The mentioning of God in the Declaration does not describe the personal God of Christianity. Thomas Jefferson who held deist beliefs, wrote the majority of the Declaration. The Declaration describes “the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God.” This nature’s view of God agrees with deist philosophy and might even appeal to those of pantheistical beliefs, but any attempt to use the Declaration as a support for Christianity will fail for this reason alone.
Well Cameron then i would think that you would need to go back and read some history books then . because it seems that you have never picked one up. And God’s word will never fail as the devils lies will.
While it’s amusing to hear someone who obviously believes in primitive, bronze age mythologies talk about reading “history” books, I’ll bite – which history books do you think I should read?
Secretagent, god has failed against the devil so far. I’d say on a pure numbers game, the Devil is winning 5 to 1 at least. World population = 6 million people. About 2.1 million of them are say they are christians but we would all have to agree less than half would be classified as true christians by any other christian (with all the conflicting beliefs within each denomination). That gives us 17% or 5:1. That’s a huge win to the devil. What the hell (excuse the pun) is god doing??
You know Cam ‘History’ books. The book of Mark, Luke, John, etc, etc. Secretagent has a spare copy of them next to his/her banjo.
Source for stats:
http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html#Christianity
Want to re-check those numbers Hugo? Million or Billion?
Not only is God losing, but Jesus is very, VERY bad at keeping his word.
Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who shall not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom (Matthew 16:28, Mark 9:1, Luke 9:27).
Hmmmm…. he’s about 1950 years late at this stage. How long before his followers figure out he was pulling their leg?
yep, billion.
I think that unless you kno what your talking about, you should keep your mouths shut. A lot of the claims and points presented here are so silly they make me chuckle. Honestly people, how can you attempt to make points against Christianity unless you know yourself what we christians actually believe in. Get a life.
Ashley, I note with amusement that you didn’t even bother to try to correct us on the points where you think we are wrong. Why don’t you tell us what you believe?