More Mormon Spin

Oh no, Mormons aren’t trying to deny a minority group their basic rights. It’s the MORMONS that are a minority group who are being attacked. In fact, they are just like the African-Americans who lived in the South during the civil rights movement.

The fucking BALLS on these people!

Oh sure – they commanded their brainwashed hoards to spend millions promoting fear and lies in the lead up to the Prop 8 vote – but that’s just because they are a small, attacked minority.

Sure – in 1997 Time Magazine called them one of the wealthiest churches in the world per capita – but you can still be uber-rich and be a persecuted minority…. can’t you?

Sure – in 1967, Mormon Apostle (and later church President) Ezra Taft Benson, said “the Negroes” fighting for civil rights were getting their “planning, direction, and leadership… from the Communists”.

Sure – in 1954, one of the LDS “elders” tried to justify segregation, saying “I think the Lord segregated the Negro and who is man to change that segregation? It reminds me of the scripture on marriage, “what God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.” Only here we have the reverse of the thing — what God hath separated, let not man bring together again.”

Read some of the speeches of Mormon leaders during the civil rights battles and then compare them to this most recent speech about the gay rights movement and you’ll see the VERY SAME RHETORIC being used. “It’s God’s Law”, “It’s always been this way”, etc etc. It’s a disgrace and any Mormon who doesn’t have the integrity to do what Todd Whitaker did, deserves our contempt.

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27 thoughts on “More Mormon Spin

  1. Thanks for this, Cameron! My what a smug, and superior attitude… and how clever of him to play victim while going on the offensive. Not very Christian, or Saintly, but big on hubris!

    The sort of hubris that can make new holy scriptures appear out of thin air :-D

  2. steve says:

    Funny Funny! Tell me where those quotes are found and what sources you have? That was like a long time ago!! The church stands to be criticised because people don’t likethe fact that prop 8 didn’t go there way!!! FREEDOM OF SPEECH AND FREEDOM OF RELIGION was exercised by the church, and California has spoken! The church makes up only 2% so the mormons had a lot of help from others! Quit bashing an organization that does so much good for millions of people and write down your resource on these supposedly statments these prophets made!!! What a joke!! Read Elder Oaks talk about prop 8!!!

  3. crandalm says:

    This is all too funny! The issue was that Todd couldn’t live by church standards and spoke up at the wrong time in church. I have read all the other responses and what a testimony should be about. Todd could of talked to members anytime, and even the leaders.

    The real issue as well is Todd is mad that he can’t have his marriage rights, and that the church stepped in when in reality they were exercising there freedom of relgion and freedom of speech rights, telling their members to vote yes isn’t political but helping preserve their religious rights, and their beliefs, research also shows that only 2% of mormons are living in California a small percentage of the votes that were cast!!!

    When people make statments by lds leaders in the past we need to see the link and where that was found. Notice that there was no proof of where there sources lie, and notice this is coming from someone that isn’t even a member!!! I have never heard any racists remarks by our leaders ever, and if they were said then shame on the leaders!! We are taught that NO ONe is perfect and a person needs to base their beliefs on what is taught the doctrine that is established. So leaders can add in their own thoughts against church which sometimes happens, but rare! Again I will need to see the refrences to where the writer claims these things!!! If not then this is a non credible writing!!! Someones anger against a good church!!

    • Crandal, you’re missing the point. Todd was angry, and rightly so, that the church promotes bigotry against minorities. That’s the core of the issue. My question to you is: when is it justified for you to force your beliefs onto others? When did Jesus say that was okay?

  4. randy says:

    Who cares?? Find me one church that is perfect and I will join them!!! I just think it’s dumb to bash the mormon church yes they have had some issues, but if you actually researched the good they have done, then you can see why millions of people join every year! I have family that are members and I would be one, but I can’t give up certain things but I know it’s because I can’t fully follow the doctrine so I won’t be a member until I do give those things up!

    There are so many anti-mormon things out there, and everyone fails to see or read anything good out there about the church. I think 95% of the crap that is out there is totally false about the church and mostly people making the crap up, and calling it credible evidence! All you have to do is see how the religion makes the person a better citizen, and better human being, plus someone that is closer to christ and to me this religion is just that! So many good people because of this religion, God bless the mormons!!!

  5. doug says:

    Okay that was like eons ago, and if you read all the points of the talk it goes deeper and talks down communism! At the time blacks couldn’t hold the priesthood, but now they can, what’s the big deal??/ Mormons are not perfect either! You can’t base a testimony or belief in the church on someones supposedly saying, but you base it on what is taught currently and sees if it agrees with you! There are so many anti-mormon sites out there, and I am willing to bet that over 95% of that is totally false! You have to research the good as well. Anyone can make or write stuff up about the church!!! Give me a break people! Destroy a church that doesn’t do any good for people than we can talk!!!

    • Doug, any good that any organisation does, be it a church or a government or a corporation, has to be weighed against the bad that it does. And when any organisation, such as the LDS church, is promoting bigotry or, in the case of the blacks, segregation, then all honest and ethical people should denounce it. Even the KKK did some good things. But that doesn’t excuse the wrong things they did.

      And it’s one thing if the wrong things that get done are just mistakes. In the case of the LDS position on segregation and bigotry, however, these aren’t just mistakes. These things are built into the philosophy of the church. That’s a whole other case of worms.

  6. Chris says:

    You also have to look at religon? What is religion Cameron? Isn’t it a set of beliefs an organization has about a creator, and also a set of rules and guidelines to follow? So because a religon says that marriage is between man and woman all of a sudden there a bigot church? Wouldn’t that make MOST churches bigots? Wouldn’t that defeat the relgion and rules of christanity? Woudn’t that also make Christ a lier? After all he spoke that marriage is indeed between man and woman. A church that accepts these practices is not following gods teachings but instead following the world’s.

    There has always been a seperation of religion and government or people’s laws. God has his laws as well, and that is why people can quit church if they don’t like religion. I think it’s funny you make that comparison and fail to know the rules of christanity and what churches believe in.

    Segregation is old news and the church did correct theirselves. Matter of fact most people don’t know this but Joseph Smith did give a black person the priesthood, and then later on it stopped, but continued. That was a long time ago though. I think a church defines what is sin, and then sticks to that or what would be the point of religion?

    • Chris, it doesn’t matter what each religion believes. What matters is when a religion, such as LDS, starts campaigning to deny rights to a minority who doesn’t share their beliefs. That is bigotry and every decent human being fights against it.

      • Doug, would you mind explaining to me why you, Greg, Randal, Emily, Steph, Randy, Crandal, Randy and Chris ALL HAVE THE SAME IP ADDRESS?

        Is it perhaps, Doug, that you are making up all of these names to make it look like other people support your argument for bigotry?

        Shame on you, Doug, shame on you. It’s bad enough that you’re a bigot, but now you’ve also demonstrated that you are a liar and a fraud.

        I’m sure that isn’t a commentary on the kind of people who belong to the Mormon church though. I’m sure most members aren’t complete liars and frauds, they are just mislead.

  7. Emily says:

    No one forces their beliefs on others! The church had every right to tell it’s members to vote yes to protect their beliefs thus it is written in our constitution freedom of religion and freedom of speech.

    People join the church on their own terms, and people leave on their own terms simple as that! People didn’t have to listen to the church to vote yes, they could of ignored them, but they didn’t! Let’s move on religion is for people who believe in god and want to follow rules! Those that can’t should leave which Todd did, but what Todd is doing is crying that his rights are taking away when in reality he never had those rights of marriage the church took nothing away!! Todd can rally his troops and maybe in a big vote can outvote all of us christians but until that day Todd must live with his decision and his lifestyle that he choose, which doesn’t agree with christanity. sorry if it sounds harsh but that’s the truth in religion eyes!!!

  8. crandal says:

    How is he rightly so? Did he not belong to an organization that outlawed same sex marriage? Doesn’t christanity and most religions practice this? Who forced what beliefs on others? The church did tell people to vote and donate to prop 8. why would that be wrong? Were they not exercising there rights according to the constitution? Couldn’t LDS people have said no as well? Who forced beliefs on others is the question to you? People join the church out of free will and agency, and people can leave anytime as well!! We tell people about the church and they do the rest! The issue has been dogged about free agency. We voted because of that agency and freedom of religion. The church wants to preserve their beliefs as protected by the constitution. Todd could of pulled his friends in the election and ousted those that voted yes, it’s a free election, but the people voted yes, and yes the minority of votes came from mormons. From what I read there is only 2 % that are mormons living in Cali. That is a small fraction of the vote! Church took away no rights that didn’t exisit for same sex marriage was never a right!

    • Crandal – the LDS church cannot “outlaw” same sex marriage. It doesn’t get to make laws. Not even in the USA. It was wrong for the LDS church to tell its members to vote for Prop 8 because Prop 8 is a law that denies rights to a minority. That’s called bigotry (look up the definition).

  9. randal says:

    I don’t think I missed any point! How did we force our beliefs onto others? Wasn’t Todd already a member and by being a member he knew our rules? So he quit because they didn’t appeal to him? we don’t force anyone to join, they join on their own terms!!

    By telling people to vote yes the church did no wrong but only practiced what is their rights to the constitution. Freeom of religion and freedom of speech and the right to vote. The church is protecting their rights and the way we believe. Members could of said no. Besides it’s the vote of the people, and the members only account for 2% of the population in california! No rights were trampled on, the majority won, and the minority of those lost simple as that!

    • Randal – when you spend millions of dollars funding a campaign to deny people the right to wed, THAT’s when you are forcing your beliefs onto others. What church rights are you protecting by denying the rights of others?

  10. Well..Exposing Doug’s Little Secret Seems to have Killed the Debate, Just wondering How many little “Sock Puppet” Rolls He had been Playing in here …. Honestly though Doug and the Likes of him are the Very same Brand of bigotry I Faced Every Week for 40 years, there is no Reasoning with them as their Minds are Made up that Homosexuality is a Sin and the Sinner Needs to Repent and Be Deprogrammed Through a Private Church Program many are not familiar with called “Evergreen”

    It Is there that Homosexual Members of the Church Have a Final Chance at Living a So called “Normal Life” after Electro shock therapy along with Several known Brainwashing techniques are performed on Willing Individuals that Believe they can change their sexual Orientation.
    This is Just another reason To Carefully Examine the efforts and Agendas that the Mormons Throw at their Gay Members. Sorta Like “Change we can Believe in” I can’t change Being a Homosexual as much as you cant change being Born a Heterosexual, Its How we are Wired from Birth, If it were a choice, Why would I Want to Be Gay? If I had a choice I Probably would prefer Not to be a minority so folks its not that easy, Its sorta like Michael Jackson wanting to be white…He did as much as he could but ultimately he was still an african American Decendant.

    This Mormon Church has been on the wrong side of Many Civil Rights Issues In Recent times they Used the same Stratogy in the 1960’s when they were Against Interracial marriage between a black and a white person..their Slogan was the same then as it is today ironically “to protect the sanctity of marriage” as “Blacks” Or the Seed of Cain was allowed thru the flood of Noah in order for Satan to have a representation on the earth’ and for God’s Seed to Mix with Satan’s representation was A Sin and the penalty was Death on the spot’

    This Is Factual Truth my friends, Look it up for yourselves if you find it hard to believe, but it is true and this is the brand of bigotry Myself and many millions of Americans are up against when it comes to Mormons Supporting Political agendas.

    I Am Ashamed that My Family had contributed their efforts Pioneered across the plains pulling a handcart 2000 miles through the wilderness to a Place they called “Zion”for this church and its Bigotry, and for them to become Financially and Morally Positioned in Our day to Discriminate against So Many Civil Rights and Basic freedoms We enjoy as Americans, My Ancestors would Not be proud of what they had pioneered for if they knew what it would become in the 21st century. Mormonism Is sort of a Utopian Society Based on Christian values clarified by Joseph Smith’s Interpretations thru revelation, Those that Do not fit into their Strict Curriculum of Obedience/Disobedience Are Urged to “Repent” Or Else be Ex-Fellowshipped OR Ex-Communicated…This is God’s Love’ The Mormon Way’

    I am Grateful To be who I am and to Have the Outpouring of Unconditional Support from So Many Whitaker relatives in Utah and California, I have made my family Very Proud for standing up to bigotry and intolerance, on Facebook, Twitter, Myspace, and Youtube I have gained the respect of So many friends and family through my testimony that I don’t know why it took me 10 months to Write it down and read it aloud.

    Thanks to Everyone Especially Cameron and Even Doug for their Comments Both Positive and Negative and Especially for watching my Final Testimony, I am Glad I had the opportunity to Share this with the rest of the world

    ….(Hint)…When debates Resort to “SockPuppet Supporters” One can safely asume The Point Was Unchallengeable’
    It is hard to convince free thinkers that wrong is Supposedly “Right” without Supporters. Even Sock Puppets ‘

    God Bless

    My Current IP Address Is :75.214.132.200 Thanks Cameron for Keeping this an Honest Forum

    Todd Whitaker

  11. Jake says:

    What I have seen are two sides that don’t want to stop debating. While I feel for Todd in his circumstance with the church, I also see Doug’s side.

    There is a seperation of God’s laws, and the world’s laws. Some people have problems with these rules and then quit. Christanity has a rule about same sex marriage, and they do see this as a sin against god. What Todd is proposing is a change in his laws. That is why I say there is a seperation of laws. If the mormons are bigots then that would also make thousand of other christian religions bigots as well.

    While you may not have those rights, as a christian you can research what god says about homosexuality and then ask him if what your doing is in compliance with his laws. I also know that the mormons believe that this life is a test and a time to prepare to meet god. They teach that we are given certain weaknesses thatwe must overcome while on this earth. you say that you were born with this, and you may have, but that could only mean that god gave you this weakness for you to overcome and conquer that weakness. It is in the trials, and struggles we have in life that strengthens us and makes us closer to god.

    These are my thoughts on the matter,and your either christian or your not. Please go your way, but to criticise a church that is protecting their rights and rules, only tells me that your mad you can’t have it your way in the matter. The church did no wrong in telling it’s members to vote yes and preserve what they live and teach. If people didn’t fight for thier rights and religious freedoms what kind of place would this be? You have every right to re-cruit people and exercise your freedoms through the popular vote as well, and who knows maybe one day you will get that right within the government bondary but not a christian boundary as the church probably won’t accept this practice. Good luck in your endevors!

    • Jake, The LDS Church also fought against equal rights for women in the 70s (http://www.bostonphoenix.com/boston/news_features/other_stories/multi-page/documents/04538494.asp). Is God against women, too?

      According to Wikipedia:

      “A bigot is a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices.”

      That sounds like Mormons to me just as it applies equally to other Christian denominations and other religions. That’s one of the main problems I have with religions, especially the Yahweh religions. They are inherently intolerant of other beliefs. The problem many of us have with the Mormons specifically, though, isn’t that they are bigots. It’s that they aren’t content to remain PASSIVE bigots. They deliberately use their wealth and influence to deny rights to other people (women, blacks, gays) based on their own religious intolerance.

      It’s a disgrace and anybody who considers themselves a Mormon should be ashamed.

  12. Doug says:

    So I am at home on my own laptop, but Todd nice to see you on here again! Like I was telling Cameron in our area at work we have just the one computer, and we do plenty of talking and looking at the internet, so naturally a lot of my co-workers who are the same religion has typed in, so I guess if you don’t believe me than call me the sock puppet no big deal!

    So we both differ and that’s fine, I think you think your in the right and so do I . But we can’t ignore facts. If you believe in God than you study what god says through his scriptures, the prophets, and all his holy works, and by doing this we know that he is against same sex marriages. The next fact as well is the fact that we are on this earth and our goal is to live a good life, and repent always of our wrong doings. We are giving challenges and weaknesses to overcome on this life. Some fail and others succeed. WHile you may have been born that way, just knowing that God is against same sex marriages tells us that he gives us weaknesses to makes us stronger and to overcome. Also another fact remains that laws of god and religion are different than that of the worlds. We can’t all have our laws granted by the church. If we are bigots than so be it, but laws by chrisitans have been set and established by god.

    The church did nothing wrong on the prop 8 vote by telling it’s members to vote yes. The constitution gives us the right to vote and protect our rights of freedom of religion. The wrong was done when your group protested against the lds church when all they did was support what the church teaches and follow the constitution of the US. You can have that right when your group out votes the opponents of same sex marriage, which I do believe Todd will happen over time, those rights given to same sex couples. I just feel those rights won’t happen within christanity or at least the lds church because god has not okayed that yet.

    I don’t know how you claim that a lot of people have quit the church because of your saying? If they quit because of this then they were either on the way out already or never had a testimony of the gospel. If you leave church that is up to you,which you did,but we shouldn’t preach against an organization that teaches people to be more like Christ and follow in his ways. Even if we disagree. Good is good, and not all churches are perfect and we don’t agree totally with them, but this church has made me a better individual with a deeper testimony and understanding of christ, and that’s all I need. Please stop the bashing and move on to a new church.

  13. Again doug you seem to somehow completely miss the point entirely but thats okay because I see that the church has made you the person we enjoy today. Mormon Teachings have Obviously edified and enriched your life as it has mine in days gone by, the one major difference is that The church has’nt preached a political message to take anything away from your life as it did mine. Its very simple, and weather you agree or disagree is your choice

    You get what you give in life and Someday the church will understand that we were never “Bashing” it but rather trying in an act of desperation to open its eyes to the Hurt it is causing in so many families throughout the world.All the Good things the mormon church has done to aid suffering people and poverty in Utah Mainly and then abroad has a blemish now because of the Prop 8 involvement

    Its Easy to Move on to another church and Leave 7 generations of Pioneer history in the dust when My church acted as they did in a political election which in my country we are guaranteed a seperation of church and state, or at least we thought’

    Doug I respect the fact that you stand up for what you believe and all the goodness that comes with it, Unfortunately Hundreds of Members have written me personally explaining they can no longer belong to such an Church after Seeing my Testimony and doing some homework on Mormonism, the Sanctity of marriage in the 60’s and today and so many people see through the Curtain and find what I Did’ You May call this bashing but its just informing people of the Absolute truth

    The church Did Everything wrong when they participated in prop 8, So Many people see it and are leaving their wards behind because they do not want their tax exempt donations to go to a Political purpose especially when we see how wreckless the leaders of this church are when it comes to Contributing to taking rights away from a minority group, Its a Shameful act and One day We will see an Official Declaration come forth from the leadership of mormonism just as we did in 1978

    And by the way…I seem to be doing much better without church in my life dictating rules and telling me how to laugh, what to Not joke about, Who I can or cannot marry, what language is appropriate and what Foods are Forbidden by the word of wisdom and expecting $10,000 of every 100,000.00 I Make…, I seem to be enjoying Life more now than I ever did living as a latter-day saint, Ive discovered I no longer need a crutch to guide me in life, life is what Todd makes of it, he doesnt need a book, a prophet or 12 guys praying before their prophet for a sign from god.
    I have found greater Peace and Happiness by being self reliant and investing in my future and My Family’s well being rather than write it off for uncle sam as a generous donation to My Religious institution which ironically in turn uses those funds against me and many other devout members to take away our Civil rights as Americans, Not mormons

    as for sock puppets I can Understand a Local Router distributing Ip address on a LAN and being Visible to the outside world WAN as a single IP, but a deeper look at those protocols reveals an individual Address for Each Pc Its called a MAC Address,
    It would’nt suprise me if all those Supposedly Sock Puppet Bloggers had the same MAC Address…

  14. Doug says:

    Or should we re-direct that any say anyone that devotes his time and talents in destroying a religion can be considered ashamed, has a lot of hatred in their life, and literally has nothing to do but destroy and rile up people’s emotions.

    I think it is a shame that you spend this time on other’s beliefs. People have their free agency to quit and join anytime. Have you looked into the church’s viewpoints about your claims of racism, blacks, voting etc.. Or have you gone on the research of people who are not members and who don’t know the full story?

    Religious freedom is huge in our eyes and should be fought for. WE believe in preserving our rights and freedoms, and if that meant that the church gives money and gets involved so be it! Just like same sex couples that are fighting and trying to change the laws that have been set forth throughout generations of time, they too are imposing their rights and imposing people to accept what is not accepted. The church is preserving what has already been preserved and did nothing wrong with what they did.

    To say what you say about the church is showing us your ignorance and little knowledge you possess about religion and why a christian organization would indeed fight for their laws to remain intact. If know one would fight religion and god would be thrown out of the constitution and our freedoms to vote and exercise our rights would be thrown out! You are indeed mad because you are not christian you don’t believe in god, and therefore will destroy, twist people’s viewpoints, and spend hours blogging about why the church is a disgrace. I can promise you that people will still join by the thousands because the spirit and this church is true, if it were not so thousands a year would not join and the organization would soon cease to exist. The church will stay until the end, and you with your opposition only make us stronger members as we do the right research and find the right answers to our prayers.

  15. Cameron Reilly says:

    Doug, your religion seeks to deny rights to women and minorities that aren’t trying in the slightest way to do anything to diminish your freedom of religion. We believe in freedom. You do not. Like fundamentalist Islam and slavery, your religion is a throwback to a more primitive time in human history and must be fought by all people of integrity and ethics.

  16. Cameron, Thank you for your Reply, by using unethical methods to support their cause, they have taken away Our rights as Gays to marry in California Maine and elsewhere using the Name Of God in their efforts.

    There will come a day when mankind will look back and say…Wow We evolved from the Days Of the Witch hunt, and finally we have broken free from the darker Ages of religious Prejudice towards other human beings.

    Label me and others like me However you like doug, but you have made your point very clear in here, but just because it is not well received does’nt give you the right to produce supporters from thin air however it eludes to an unpopular way of thinking in a blog that you are trying to monopolize …

    Don’t get me wrong, I Love a Good intelligent debate as much as the next guy, but on an issue as serious as Marriage and the laws that come with that responsibility, the Facts that you have presented in here dont hold much weight no matter who you create to support you
    How Big of you to determine that I am Not a christian and dont believe in God just because I disagree with you, and had the laws remained intact I would be Legally Married to My Partner today, It was Prop 8 that changed an Existing Law not the other way around as you like to twist it..it is you that is ignorant my friend

    I am doing my part as one gay Mormon to show the world how I was treated.
    Im glad Its Over for me but I hope I have paved the way for my fellow Gay Brethren still mislead and confused by a powerful institution called the Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter-Day Saints

    a Producer phoned me this morning and wants to use my video in his new film “8 the mormon proposition” he was overwhelmed and moved by Todds Final testimony and is sending a camera crew to my home in the morning for an Interview and a copy of the Un-edited version of the HD Video He wants this event to be exposed to a broader audience as it deserves to be reviewed by members of the world community
    As a man of Integrity I Have agreed to this interview for the sake of My Family and All the other Gay Brethren still in the church as well as all of the countless families that have been destroyed by this church and its Policys

    Yes Doug I Too was fighting on Your side of the fence for 40 years Helping Keep Women from having their rights in the 70’s and Keeping the Sanctity of Marriage between a White man and a White Woman Etc…My Church has been on the wrong side of these issues and has stood Strong and firm in the public eye as “Freedom Of Religion”

    How Ashamed I am to have been part of such an unethical Institution

  17. Ryan says:

    I dont think the church says you CAN’T do this and you CAN’T do that. They are called guide lines, and I personally think so many people miss the big picture. For Example, the word of wisdom saying that we should not consume alcohol. Do I think a little bit of alcohol is wrong? No. I think it’s only given, because many people lose control once getting invovled with it. So it’s best not to have any at all, then to get into it so bad that you lose control of your life. But thats not whats most important. The first 2 commandments are love your god, and love your neighbour. then there is commandments like, dont kill, dont steal, etc. Its all about how your treat other people. When you die and are judged before the Almight and Omnipotent God, I dont think He is worried about how often you went to church, or if you were gay, or whether or not you payed tithing every month. I think what he cares about most, is how did you treat other people. Did you go out of your way to be a jerk, or did you try and treat everyone with kindness and respect. I think thats what makes all the difference in the world. So don’t worry on the little things that dont matter. Those guidelines are there to help you stay on the right path, not to tell you what you can and can’t do. Just remember how to treat your fellow men.

  18. Cameron says:

    Ryan, that sounds like a reasonable position to take. I have to say though, as an outsider, that the LDS insistance on doing everything they can to prevent gay couples in a loving, committed relationship from getting married would go into the ‘being a jerk’ column of any sensible god (or human, for that matter).

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