This is the scariest legal precedent I’ve heard for a while.
Holocaust denier Ernst Zündel has been sentenced to five years jail in Germany for contributing to a website.
Zündel emigrated to Canada from West Germany in 1958, when he was 19. He lived there for many decades, writing pamphlets and, more recently, websites, denying the existence of the Holocaust.
Now, denying the Holocaust is a crime in Germany – but not in Canada.
In 2003, Zündel was arrested in the United States for overstaying a visa waiver and deported back to Canada. The Canadian government, however, invoking laws passed post 9/11, said he was “a threat to Canada’s national security” and threw him in jail. Canadian Federal Court Justice Pierre Blais said “Mr. Zündel’s activities are not only a threat to Canada’s national security, but also a threat to the international community of nations.” We’re invading sovereign nations, starting bloody civil wars in the process, but this guy is “a threat to the international community of nations” for writing a website? Does anything seem wrong to you?
He was then deported back to Germany where he was wanted for the crime of “inciting racial hatred”. He was placed on a trial and yesterday sentenced to five years jail.
The world has gone mad.
I must confess to being a bit of a history nut and subscribing to the theory that we can learn a lot about our future by analyising our history.
That said, I am also a huge believer in free speech.
Zundel is a person who chooses to interpret history in a certain vien which serves his anti Jewish sentiments and beliefs. Those who choose to listen and be guided by his rantings have every right to do so.
Before we go damning the Krauts or the Kannuks though we should think back to Australia’s very recent history when our “system” chased, persecuted and even gaoled Pauline Hansen for daring to express her views publicly.
Regardless of ones political beliefs in Australia we should all be very very ashamed that we let this happen in this country and we should be very careful about critizising other countries for doing the same.
It seems to me that we, as a country, place more importance on getting a dickhead like David Hicks free than in protecting the right to free speech which we pupport to hold so dearly.
Yeah, Mr. Zündel has been dodging that particular bullet for many years now and it’s finally caught up to him. I’m thinking that the Canadian government, with the help of the American government, finally found the excuse it needed to removed a Zündel-shaped thorn in their collective sides. The squeaky wheel gets greased. Not that I agree with this particular attack against freedom of speech, but Mr. Zündel ended up making a lot of enemies in the wrong places.
I also fail to understand how making something, like denying the Holocaust, makes it not happen. It happened, there’s adequate proof all over, just because some crackpot says it didn’t happen doesn’t make him a criminal–a little confused maybe, but not a criminal. People are entitled to their own world views, should I be sent to prison for disagreeing with America’s stand on Iraq? If denying the existence of something is illegal, then Cam would be on his way to the Big House for denying the existence of gawd!
It seems amazing that a man posting comments
on histroy on an American based website can
be tried in Germany for those comments.
So much for free speech and so much
for freedom on the Internet.
As to “the Holocaust happening or not”, major changes in
are taking place today, 60 years later. For example,
the Majdanek Museum in Poland dropped the number of killed from 360,000 people killed
to 78,000 people missing. See: http://www.auschwitz-muzeum.oswiecim.pl/new/index.php?tryb=news_big&language=EN&id=879
Just on December 23, 2005.
The original Soviet generated story was the 1,500,000 people were
gassed a Majdanek. While 78,000 people is still a horrible “holocaust”,
it is far less than 1,500,000.
Germany claims to want to learn for the Holocaust. How about learning to
respect free speech?
Actually Bastard, Pauline was put in jail (wrongly) for electoral fraud, not for her views.
Hi Andrew
I really don’t think many people doubt what happened to the Jews in the late 1930’s and early 40’s.
BUT I really think you should not quote anything which originated from the Soviets. Stalin made Hitler and his collective SS and Gestapo mates look like inocent kinderten kids by comparison to what he and his secret police did to their OWN people during the same period.
Actually Cameron if every “electoral fraud” case was investigated as agressively as Paulines was a lot more people would be in gaol. Come to think of it I don’t think any other party has had a gaol sentence imposed on one of their leaders or organisers for electoral fraud.
Wait a second, Pauline & co are the ONLY people in Australia to ever commit electoral fraud……..silly me, I forgot all the other parties are made up of honest and forthright citizens.
I stand corrected.
Hey FB I”m not saying the charges against her weren’t trumped up (and paid for by a certain Federal minister) but just clarifying the “official” reasons she was interred.
FB – re Hicks – interesting that you refer to him as a dickhead. The shameful thing is that he hasn’t had any trial for anyone to really know if he is a dickhead or guilty or innocent of the charges – whatever they may actually be. I’d like to think that if I was in a prison in a foreign country, with no recourse to a fair trial, my Government would do everything in their power to make sure they gave me an opportunity to have a fair trial. Wouldn’t you? The fact that the Aussie government haven’t DEMANDED Hicks’ release or trial is a national disgrace.
Cam, I have a ticket to go to Canada I can’t use. Are you interested? No special reason I am offering it to you.
By the way, you don’t have the email address for the Canadian Government do you? No Reason.
Molly
Cam
I hear what you are saying about Hicks but lets put things into perspective. Yes he is an Australian citizen but how does an Aussie get taken as a prisoner of war by our own allies.
He isn’t being detained on criminal charges, he was caught by the yanks in company with a group of “people” who were on the other side. WTF was he doing there? Why didn’t the yanks capture other Aussie aid workers in the same region who were there administering help and first aid to anyone who needed it regardless of which side they were on.
Cam, as much as I respect the right of people to choose their own destiny, I also think that if you me or anyone else decides to go to war and support the “other side” regardless of which side is right or wrong, then all bets are off and your on your own fella.
I see many of your readers are dead set against the Iraq war. How many of them are thinking of wrapping a towel around their head, heading off to Iraq and joining the Saddam loyalists who are fighting for the return of their country to it’s original soverign power.
Perhaps Hicks is a hero for acting on his own convictions BUT he wasn’t doing it in Australia’s interests was he?
Perhaps a visit to the Amnesty International website would put the Hicks issue in a little more perspective. Perhaps if our pollies put a little more effort in supporting those who are rotting in prisons around the world for major crimes like being a doctor and treating someone with the wrong political or religious persuassion.
One last thing. Why The F..K would the yanks want to keep Hicks locked up. Why would they capture him in the first place. Why would they maintain the status quo in the face of the “uproar” it has caused. Surely the yanks have better things to do (invade another country perhaps……..hint keep an eye on Iran) than to waste their time on an “accidental tourist”.
Perhaps Molly could send his ticket to Hicks, Hicks could go to Canada, Canada could send hime to Germany and the gestapo could lock him up with Zundel.
FB, i get your point that anyone going off fighting for fundamentalists deserve whats coming to them.
HOWEVER… I think the point about Hicks is WE DON’T KNOW WHAT HE WAS DOING BECAUSE HE HASN’T HAD A FAIR TRIAL!
I’m not believing ANYTHING the Yanks tell us. They have people locked up because it suits their purpose – to scare people and to make it look like they are doing SOMETHING. They havent caught bin Laden, but at least they’ve locked up 500 people who might have something to do with him. MIGHT being the operative word, because we don’t know, do we? They haven’t had a trial and no evidence has been put forward.
This is trial by FOX NEWS. Just because FOX NEWS say Hicks is a terrorist in the making, I’m not buying it.
AND… here’s another thing.
In a civilized society, don’t you get arrested AFTER you’ve done something? Not BEFORE?
That was one of the points made in Adam Curtis’ doco. All of a sudden we seem to think it’s okay to arrest and incarcerate people BEFORE they have committed a crime (unless the crime is hanging around with dubious people).
Doesn’t that bother you?
Cam
Does the word “deterent” mean something to you.
What the Hicks saga has shown the world is that if you get caught in the wrong place at the wrong time doing. or suspected of doing the wrong thing according to the rules of war, then you have no rights, no avenue for a fair trial and you are completely at the mercy of whoever it is that captured you.
Let’s not talk about a “civilised society”. What exactly would you call civilised about what’s happening in Iraq or Afganistan at the moment? I watched an interesting video clip on UTube the other day which showed a US APC driving through city traffic in Iraq. God, Alah or whoever help you if you got in the way of the US vehicle and caused it to slow down. At one stage it came up behind a bus load of people going about their day to day business and literally pushed it to the side so it could get past. I also watched another clip where Allied soldiers were refering to the locals as if they were game animals in open season. Civilised you say???? I think not.
War is hell my friend and anyone who wants to play soldier must be prepared to pay the price. In this case Hicks went to Afganistan to join the Towelyban (I crack myself up). He was taken as a prisoner of war by the yanks and now is being treated accordingly.
If Hicks was on the steps of the Sydney Opera House (a NSW landmark for those in lesser states) spruking the virtues of the Muslim people and damning the Allied forces, I for one would support his freedom to do so to my last breath. But he wasn’t was he? The prick was in Afganistan as part of an ENEMY unit. “WE” dont really know what he did because he didn’t do it in Australia or any other country which isn’t at war. He did what he did in a war zone and got caught. In my opinion the Hicks thing is a bit like the “children overboard” saga. It’s turned into a political whipping post leading up to an election.
Does it bother me that he is being treated the way he is? Not in the slightist.
FB – That last sentence is pretty scary. Isn’t a fair trial one of the most fundamental of human rights? Actually it’s article ten of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights:
Everyone is entitled in full equality to a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal, in the determination of his rights and obligations and of any criminal charge against him.
(http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html)
Ok Cam your right. In a perfect world everybody gets their day in court.
But this aint a perfect world mate and nothing you me or anybody else says or does is going to make it one.
The yanks are the most powerful military power on this planet. You screw with them and the gloves come off. Be they right wrong or indifferent they play by their rules period. Their rules say that if they even think that you are fighting against them in a war zone then you are screwed. Does that fly in the face of the UDHR ? I believe it does. But so f__king what. Who is going to do anything about it. Sure, let’s all jump up and down and demand justice for Hicks (despite the fact that he was in Afganistan with the Towelyban (there I go again). Do the yanks give a shit? Perhaps we should assemble a crack SAS unit to break him out. Maybe we should cut diplomatic ties with the yanks until they do the right thing. And why????? To support ONE stupid individual when there are millions of other people around the world in far worse circumstances than this idiot who is at least getting food and shelter.
I’m not saying the guy doesn’t deserve a fair trial which is by now way overdue. I’m simply saying that he is ACCUSED of an offence against the US in a war zone and the yanks are dealing with him in their way and in their own sweet time.
They caught him, they imprisoned him and they will try him we they want to. Nothing anyone else says will change that and yet we seem to think that we can.
By the way, as I understand it he will be tried by a military court. Now I might be wrong, but “impartial” isn’t an adjective I would apply to those who will determine his fate.
I am going to agree to disagree on this issue with you Cam. I liken the Hicks scenario to a very tragic thing I witnessed one day. A young bloke around 16-18 years old was playing chicken on his pushbike with some fast moving traffic on an expessway just outside Sydney. I managed to get past him and pulled over in the breakdown lane to call the cops. I had just began dialing when a young P plater tried to miss this guy, misread the situation and took him out in a big way. It was quite shocking for all involved myself included. As I drove away from the scene I rationalised that the kid on the bike either had a death wish or simply had it coming. In fact I only felt sorry for the kids family and for the poor kid who was driving the car which hit him.
Well may you quote section 10 of the UDHR Cam but unless everybody abides by it, it dont mean jack!
Australians don’t actually have the right to free speech, that’s an American right. We have legislation that holds people responsible for inciting violence and hatred.
Have a look at this guy’s history, he is a threat to Canada’s national security and has been committing crimes against Germany from Canadian soil, repeatedly.
This is not someone who has no hard evidence against them. This is just one of his many quotes:
“The Jews of the world have a Holocaust coming, and all the gruesome lies that they have told about people like Germans during the Second World War—all those grotesque Spielberg-like distortions of what really took place—one day will come back to haunt Jews, and I want to not be around when that happens.”
This is not just opinion disputing facts, this is inciting violence against all Jewish people, including children. If he just said he finds the proof faulty, he wouldn’t be in this mess. It’s the other stuff he says about the future killing of Jewish people that has him in hot water.
Inciting violence based on prejudice is disgusting. It’s the very worst of human behaviour and a shame to every country on the planet.
This guy should have been given life in prison, a long time ago. We give direct influencers of murder very heavy sentences. People like this should receive even higher ones, due to the number of people they are trying to influence.
You cannot judge people you don’t know, based on race, religion, sexual preference or country of origin. Even if you think you know them, you do not have the right to choose whether they live or die.
Re Hicks I agree with Cam.
One of the big issues I had with this is that he was caught at the same time as a bunch of Poms. Blair jumped up and down and theywere released almost immediatey with no trial and sent back to England. What has our govt done since then.. SFA and that is wrong on every level. I read in today’s paper that Hicks is supposed to be home by Xmas whether found innocent or guilty, and we already know how the Yanks will find him…can you say Kangaroo Court. Maybe he is guilty but no-one eserves to be held 5 yrs without a trial no matter what your crime. Look at all the murderers and other evil people out there who have a trial in a timely manner.
Hick’s technically has done nothing wrong and was possibly just in wrong place at wrong time. he should have had trial 4 years ago at least. The Seppo’s can’t make up their own rules as they go. I bet if Afghanistan or Iraq had done the same to one of their citizens they would have invaded them to get the person get.
The Yanks love to invade countries to suit their own purposes and interfere in other countries business. Why don’t they get involved in Africa and some other nations that need real help…because those countries don’t have oil or resources that they need.