… me!
Check out the “Inifite Spaces” blog to catch all of the blow-by-blow action!
So far I’ve been called “ignorant”, a “troll”, “dishonest”, “sneaky”… yup, just the kind of Christian name-calling I’m sure we all should aspire to.
The Christians Are Attacking
by cameron | Jun 10, 2007 | science vs religion | 21 comments
21 Comments
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Just read through and they’re not being that bad are they… ‘merely a troll’ for example 😉
It’s the usual bunch o’ arguments, file under ‘I know because I’ve experienced Jesus’, ‘You’re not right because lots of people disagree with you’ and the usual heap of rhetorical formulae designed to keep them from confronting the awful truth that what (for most of them) was handed down by their folks is but a fable.
Shit, that’d scare me too – in fact confronting the ‘wrongness’ of your parents (and even moreso the ‘wrongness’ of the beliefs you’ve picked up from your peers) ‘aint easy… I know.
Although it’s the kinda thing I enjoy, it’s probably pretty futile to argue about the sources for particular gospels too, given that the fundamentals are somewhat more deeply held!
By teh way, you need this installed: http://txfx.net/code/wordpress/subscribe-to-comments/
James, yeah let’s say I’m not losing too much sleep over it. Just thought it was good for a laugh. The reason I have these discussions though, on the show and in the blogs, isn’t because I have any illusions that I’m about to convert the faithful. I do it for two reasons:
1. to force me to improve my arguments against religion.
2. to help others to do the same.
It’s trial by fire.
And I plan to publish a book this year under the new TPN Publishing banner which will be a handy little pocket book entitled “Debunking Christians”. It will sell for $5 and fit nicely into the pocket of your jeans. It will have step by step arguments for debunking the standard Christian defenses.
thanks for the tip on the comments plugin too. looking into it!
Wear it proudly, Cam. No such thing as bad publicity, especially on the Net! (though bummer…no links that I see).
Hey Cameron, long time no talk (been starting a new job, so I’ve been very busy trying to catch up on the Napoleon podcasts!)…
As we’ve discussed in the past, I myself am a Catholic, definitely not an orthodox Catholic, but I was raised in the faith and continue to go to church when I can and believe it provides the framework for a stable and traditional society. I also, however, believe in each individual’s right to believe what he or she wants, just as long as the influence and contributions to society and history of Christianity are acknowledged (both good and bad as will all religions and cultures of the past).
I think healthy debate as always is important and needed, however, to me Christianity is always singled out by atheists and secularists – why not the same for Judaism, or God forbid, ISLAM? Why is your book only titled “Debunking Christians”, and not “Debunking Muslims” or “Debunking Jews”?? Islam being a faith far more backwards and fanatical in regards to Western society than any Christian sect. Just a thought I had, but one which often crosses my mind – just look at how Christians react when a crucifix is put on display in a jar of urine and called art, or they are regularly mocked in pop culture, pretty tame and submissive, aah, but one cartoon of Muhammed, and well, we all saw the results of that in Denmark last year. One speech by the Pope offending some Muslims, and to them it justifies killing priests and nuns, burning churches, etc…
I guess what I’m trying to say is that I see you regularly crusade against Christianity (no pun intended!), which is fine, but where is the debunking of other faiths – be they Muslim, Jewish, Buddhist, or even nature religions??
-Mike
Mike, I also believe that people have a right to believe whatever they wish. However, I also think ALL religious belief is holding back the human race and is inherently dangerous. There are two reasons I’m currently focusing on Christianity:
1. It’s the biggest target. Christianity: 2.1 billion
Islam: 1.3 billion
2. I know more about it so it’s easier to debunk. I was raised a Catholic. I wasn’t raised a Muslim.
But my arguments apply equally to all religious thinking. Belief without evidence is irrational.
Good Point Mike,
I have said all along that the problem with religion is that 1) people take offense far too easily be it Muslim, Christian, Jews, patagonian tooth fish slappers or whatever and 2) that PEOPLE get arrogant about their religion…. ‘we’re right, and the rest of you are all going to hell’.
The problem with religion is some of the people involved.
I reckon the reason why cam goes on about christianity is is because we are a soft target. He doesnt want any reprcussions from any ultra militant muslims out there or the jewish defense league 🙂
J
sorry cam slight overlap on the comments there.
Fair comment, You just keep bashing your head on that wall buddy 🙂
J
Also, John and Mike, i have to point out that you are both doing a good job perpetuating this stereotyping of “Muslims are violent, Christians are peaceful”. Need I remind you that Christians have committed far more atrocities around the world than Muslims probably ever will? Christian terrorism is alive and well. The National Liberation Front of Tripura, Lord’s Resistance Army, Freedomites, God’s Army, Eric Robert Rudolph, James Charles Kopp, Provisional Irish Republican Army…
I can’t believe that this guy has decided to have a go at you over such a petty issue. If the most important thing that his faith rests on is John being an eyewitness to Jesus I’d say his beliefs are in big trouble. So much of the flack Xns get is squarely brought on by themselves. For what it’s worth Cam, as one Christian I’d like to say that I don’t think you are “ignorantâ€, a “trollâ€, “dishonest†or “sneaky”. Quite the opposite in fact.
I don’t get it.
Why does it bother you (or anyone) what someone choses to believe or how they chose to construct their world view?
I’m not a Christian. But I believe at the core of most religions are some pretty basic ideas about how to live morally. And many religious communities provide wonderful support networks that strengthen society as a whole.
Why not get specifically aggro with the bad apples rather than go on a logician’s crusade you’ll never win?
Simon, as one of my listeners said in an email to me today:
“Whenever asked why I care about other people’s religious beliefs I always say “because they voteâ€. I then usually add that by and large, religious people are informed by the church about various positions, such as their attitude to certain elements of science, and when they vote accordingly it directly affects me. I am in half a mind to send an open letter to Kevin Rudd asking him how he would feel about a candidate who truly believes in Santa Claus.”
I think Eli Yudkowsky summed it up well in the chat I had with him last week when he said that if people accept irrational thinking and denial of evidence into one area of their lives (religion), then they are more likely to accept it on other issues – like WMD and climate change, just to name two.
I used to think the same as you until recently. I had a live and let live policy. My big change of heart about religion happened when I realized that we have 90% of the population on the planet believing in fairy tales. IN the 21st century. And not just believing in any old fairy tales, but in violent, racist, destructive and demeaning fairy tales.
Anyone who thinks that religion is about morality hasn’t read the same holy books that I have read. The Christian Bible may say some good things about loving your neighbour, but it also tells you to kill those you aren’t God’s chosen people and that anyone who doesn’t believe in Jesus will end up dying worse than the people from Sodom and Gomorrah.
Word for word, there is far more violence, intolerance and racism in religion than there is good stuff.
But at the heart of the issue is that having 90% of the world walking around believing in fairy tales is inherently dangerous to the future of the planet. If we’re going to survive this century, I think we need as many people as possible basing their worldview on evidence and rational thinking and not on 2000 year old fairy tales.
No Cam, Now your just being a dickhead.
Im not perpetuating the belief that Muslims are violent. Whilst you may not see me as a rational person mate, Im not blinkered enough to believe that christians are entirely peaceful. Look at crusades, look at northern ireland. All religions have their extreme factions that everyone should condemn.
We all have our own skills Cameron and Ive come to the conclusion that yours that you like poking things with sharp sticks. You also delight in the reaction that you get from people otherwise you would not have brought up some religious person dissing you on a blog.
Perhaps one of the things you should talk to your shrink about is this constant need for attention that you seem to have for attention. A need which I will feed no longer.
Best of luck
John.
Speaking of live and let live. Someone tell me where this fits into centuries of christian missionaries destroying thousands of years of wonderful cultures (south america, north america, australia, africa, etc). Where the hell (pun intended) was (and is) their live and let live mentality. Globalisation hasn’t decimated the world’s cultural diversity, christian missionaries have.
John, that was the ONLY point of discussion with my shrink. He called it my “need for validation”. Sounds like you don’t want to validate me any longer and, like your Christian brethren, have resorted to calling me names instead of putting up a logical argument. Shame, I held you in more esteem than that. You were claiming that I was attacking Christians and not muslims because CHristians are a “soft target” and I don’t want “reprcussions from any ultra militant muslims”. As if ultra militant christians are any better.
Hugo – And you don’t need to go back far to find examples of Christian intolerance and violence. Top US Christian Pat Robertson wants the US to assassinate Hugo Chavez, called Hindus “demonic” and said that they should be barred from entering the United States, claims Islam is “motivated by demonic power”, etc.
BTW, the Christian blogger i linked to, Craig Schwarze, the one who felt quite free to attack me on his blog, has declined my invitation to come on the show and have a discussion about the issues.
Christian missionaries don’t stick around to clean up the mess they make either. They certainly didn’t help Australia’s native population. At least 150 languages have been destroyed.
Cameron, as a Christian/Catholic, I have to say that I for one have NEVER resorted to name calling with you – just wouldnt do 🙂
As far as extremist Muslims vs. extremist Christians – there are extremists on all sides, extremist atheists and anarchists included (atheism/secularism in and of itself is also a type of humanist-based religion of sorts, so I don’t believe ANYONE is truly without some sort of belief system). If people worshipped flying purple three headed squirrels, I suppose there would be good and bad among them as well. My own experiences in my religion have been nothing but positive, with TONS of emphasis on helping others, helping the poor and those less fortunate, as well as on practical solutions to social problems – so when I hear people spout nothing but negativity it really to me does the religion/church I have been involved in an injustice. My family is very Catholic, but my uncle is a doctor, my mother is a chemistry/science teacher, and my brother is studying meteorology – hardly a bunch of superstitious children.
I guess I believe in moderation in all things – whether that is someone’s religious beliefs OR how far man can and should go with scientific advances. I really don’t want to get into that debate right now, but I do want to point out or rather, pose this question – where would society get it’s “morals”, i.e. ideas of right and wrong if religion did not exist?
On which belief/political/moral system would ethics come to be based upon? Just a thought – which I’m sure you’ll have an answer to. Also, if there is no God, no creator, so supreme force governing all things beyond science, where did everything come from? Who or what created all the matter in the universe? – the beginning – the very beginning of time – where did it come from? – someone or something had to create SOMETHING along the way. Just my rambling thoughts after a hard days work and a glass of my own preferred Scottish medicine!
-Mike
Mike
I love this idea that morals come from religion. Anyone who has read the OT knows that it is full of violence, intolerance, injustice.
One of my favourites is Exodus 21: And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished. Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money.
So it’s okay to beat your slaves to death, as long we they survive a day or two after you beat them. After all, they are you money!
And, of course, the NT is no better. The central position of ALL religions, including Christianity, is this:
“Believe what we want you to believe or you will spent eternity in damnation.”
This isn’t the basis of any morals that I want in our society.
Atheists, of course, don’t say that people who don’t accept our “beliefs” (of course, science and rational thinking aren’t beliefs, they are an acceptance of theories supported by evidence, but that’s another discussion) will “burn in hell for all eternity”.
We just say you’re living a life avoiding truth, denying evidence and choosing irrational positions on major questions. But we respect your right to do that. We don’t condemn you to everlasting hell for it.
So, tell me Mike, who has the better morals? The religious person condemning everyone who doesn’t share their beliefs to everlasting hell, or the atheist who respects your right to believe whatever you want?
Cam,
maybe you should team up with this guy to write that reason/atheism book you mentioned. http://gospelofreason.wordpress.com/2007/05/27/sceptic-answers-to-christian-faqs/
It’s in response to this attempt to justify religious misconceptions here http://www.swordandspirit.com/LIBRARY/FAQS/Q01_05.php
Hugo, love this line from the Sword site:
“Let’s be honest. Science is not religiously neutral. Science deals with cause and effect. Whether the scientist admits it or not, causes can be natural or supernatural.”
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.